3 Programs for Improving Your Profitability
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3 Programs for Improving Your Profitability

December 25, 2019

– From coast to coast Agency Unfiltered comes home to Boston Massachusetts. In the final episode of
our on the road season, we TribalVision. Damien Cabral, partner and
co-founder of TribalVision, shares with us a few
programs they rolled out to help improve their profitability. Specifically Damian
shares how they’ve created formalized career paths to
improve employee retention. How they’ve built an expensive freelancer partner network for low cost delivery. And how they introduced a lower tiered retainer price point to help
combat client churn rates. Let’s jump in. (upbeat music) Damien, thank you so much
for joining us on Unfiltered. We’re happy to have you. – Sure, happy to be here. – Yeah man and obviously we’re here in the TribalVision offices. So it’s exciting to be
able to visit you guys and see what you’re working on. I think that the best place to start. Obviously we were talking
before we started this but TribalVision has been intentional with some of the processes in
place you put into practice to help improve profit for the agency. And so I’ll be interested
to unpack that a little bit and maybe the best place to start would be just talking through
some of the investments you’ve made with like career growth and career pathing for the team. So why don’t you just explain kind of what that looks like
and how you shape it. – Sure and that’s one
of those things where you’re constantly retooling
it and probably never done. Because every time you
get to that next level then you’ve got to start over again and retool what you retooled three years. – [Kevin] That’s right, yeah. – So the first few
years you’re just trying to get a few clients, Hawk your wares. Figuring out what the heck you’re doing. No one’s too worried about titles or career growth or anything like that. – Sure, yeah. – Pretty much your review
will look like hey, let’s sit down. Hey yeah, you’re doing a good job. You can’t yell at this
person like that, you know. And just back to doing the work. – Right. – And then eventually you got to grow up because you’ve got a lot more people. You gotta be focused on
retaining those people you’ve invested so much time in. And you’ve got to add some actual process. So I mean with us right now we’re at about 72, 73 people at any given time. So we’ve probably had to go through three or four of these different iterations. We had a baseline of these are the roles. These are the job descriptions. This is a typical account set up. And then because the work got more complex so the organization got more complex. Or people were looking
at us saying like hey, what’s my next step? Then we had to go back to the
drawing board and say okay. Yeah, we do have to actually
take this seriously. Sit down, figure it
out and figure out what that career progression looks like. So up until now it’s been
fairly simple because you know. We started with marketing associates, senior associate marketing manager. And the bottom of that band
you’re doing more of the work. The middle, you’re doing some. You’re managing some at the top, you were doing more managing. As things have gotten more complex and we’ve got more clients
under each person’s umbrella. We’ve really had to unpack
what those look like. And tried to create something. One that aligns our
interests with the clients but two also create something
exciting for the employees. And I think, you know, that’s the most difficult part of the balance. It is looking at what you
think the market needs. Looking at what the employees want. And trying to blend those
two to come up with something that makes sense for the business but also makes sense for the employees. – I mean the balance
can be difficult, right? Because you want to obviously do right by the customer always, right. That goes without saying. But at the same time too
you want to build a set up where any given employee on any given day can say, hey yes. Like I see myself here long term and here’s like the clear cut path for me to grow myself, my career right. Just contextually, this
comes up a lot with a number of different agencies. Everyone has their own perspective. Do you tend to like pod your teams? Do you kind of like round robin assign based on client needs? Like how do you actually
build delivery teams for for particular clients? – So we’re in the middle of actually transitioning everything
that we’ve had in the past. So we’ve done some minor
updates in the past. But right now we have two
big initiatives going on. One is in the past there were client teams that were deployed. And it was completely
across functional team. So you could have a marketing manager with potentially five different managers above them based on how
the clients were assigned. And when they were ready to
get new clients and everything. – Just bandwidth capacity. – It was completely based on capacity and when they were ready
for the next account and filling those slots. So one thing we’ve really
been working on right now is not coming up with pure pods where you only have one manager. But really trying to take that complexity and make it less complex
and create groups staffing. So that’s really where we’re
looking at saying, okay. If you had the potential as
a senior marketing manager to be working with eight
different marketing managers a year ago. How can we increase the
density of managers you have where you’re not just with one or two? But there’s some sharing
and matrix organization but it’s a lot more dense. So it’s easier for you to
have less conversations about the same amount of accounts. – That makes sense. You mentioned I think right at the top of the the episode here. You said that career pathing, like growth opportunities for employees. It’s always an iterative process, right? It’s never settling and just
continuing to improve that. Based on where you are today
has there been anything that you tested, tried. But realize you had to
pivot or go a different way? Basically I’m asking was there like something that didn’t work out
as well as you anticipated? That forced you to pivot or re-imagine it? – Yeah, one of the biggest pivots probably happened year three for us. When we originally developed the concept. You know, the thought behind TribalVision was before we get to any tactics we’re starting with a strategy. So initially we had a strategy team where the thought was hey, That’s a very unique skillset. Hey that’s something some
people are interested in. Something, a piece that
others are not interested in. – Strategy being like
the statement of work or like the proposal kind of? The documentation of your roadmap. – Yeah, strategy being
a actual marketing plan deliverable delivered to the client. – [Kevin] Got It. – So we initially set it
up where a separate team would create the marketing plan. And then would hand it off
to an implementation team to then go and do. Cause on paper, like okay. It’s a different skill set for someone building marketing plans from actually running project management
and implementing, right? – [Kevin] Yeah, sure. – So that’s how we initially had a set up. And throughout the years we
just had so much friction actually trying to make that work. Because you know, the strategy
team would build something and then the implementation
team would have to then execute on it. And they might not agree
with that initial vision. So that was a friction point internally between the employees. Secondly, it was a headache
for some of the clients because from their perspective. And it, it makes sense when you say it now but we didn’t see it back then. They just spent all this time
teaching the strategy team about their business. Doing the discovery,
really doing a deep dive. We had an internal meeting
to try to transition a lot of that knowledge. But you’re never going to
get it at the same level as the people who ran
the initial discovery. So then the client was
frustrated that they had to teach a whole new team
everything about their business that they just– – They’re doing the work twice, right. And I just built all
this trust with person A and now you’re telling me there’s a whole new team coming in. So yeah. – Exactly. – You saw the friction there? – So we blow it up. We said, you know, we
still believe strategy is a difficult thing in a unique skillset. But we’re just going to
build more blended teams with some people with the strategic chops and some people at the
implementation chops. And have the same client,
the same team come in and write the marketing plan. That’s delivering the
marketing plan for consistency with delivering the work. But also to alleviate that
headache with the client. So that was I think a great example. – Perfect example. – Hey the best plans, you know, don’t survive the field sometimes. And that’s part of owning an agency is you get good by pumping your head a whole bunch of times. And hopefully being flexible enough to make changes based on what
your employees are telling you and what the market’s telling you. – Very cool, if I’m an
agency that is currently at a place where maybe
TribalVision was in years past. I want to be more prescriptive and like outline and communicate and build these career
paths, growth opportunities for my employees. What would be your
recommendations on where and how to get started? Who should I involve in those decisions? So kind of like outline that process. So I can go home and do it for my team. – Yeah, I’d say it’s good before
just entering one of those brainstorming sessions
with the greater team, to put in some pre-thought. Think about initially how
you would set this thing up. So it gets the team to
a place where they can react to something versus just starting with a blank canvas. And then also list out these are the areas that I have questions on that I do want you guys to weigh in on. So you have to involve the team but you can’t just all
roll up into a room, whiteboard it and start from scratch. – Sure. – That’s usually where
a lot of time is wasted. And also the team doesn’t know what the barriers are, right. So you as a leader, you need
to come into those meetings and say, hey. These are the things that
are my non-negotiables. This is my initial vision
and this is the areas I’m willing to negotiate
and I want to hear. And these are the things
I have no idea on. And show some humbleness
and say like, I really– – [Kevin] This is where your contributions are going to be the most valuable. – Exactly and let them know like. You know, what tier decision is this? Is this a tier three decision
where we’re all gonna vote? And whatever comes out of
it, we’re going to go with. Is this a tier two decision where I’m going to have your
input but ultimately I’m going to be making the final decision? And you know, tier one decisions wouldn’t be appropriate in this. But this is what I’m doing, get on board. – [Kevin] Sure. – This is what we’re doing. – Do you organize? I don’t mean to bring
us on a rabbit hole here but do you organize most of the? Can you organize questions or problems or decisions in that
three tiered framework? Is it do you guys lean on that? – That’s something I’ve
learned I’ve had to do more in the past. And that’s typically friction with clients and with employees is a
communication problem. – [Kevin] Sure. – Right, so one thing I’ve
learned over the years is when you’re soliciting feedback. You need to let people know what type of. What their level of involvement in is and who’s gonna make the final decision. – [Kevin] Sure, right. – And it, you know, it differs, right. So, you know– – Set the stage from the start so everyone’s on the same
page when the decision has to be made at the as an outcome. – Exactly, exactly. – You mentioned your team
is what, 72 73 people. But I’ve been led to believe as well that you also have a
pretty extensive freelancer and partner network that you lean on. – Yeah. – I would imagine that
involving that group of partners, freelancers. Helps again with
profitability to some degree. So what’s the decision
making process there? How’d you build that network? I’d be interested to learn
how you use freelancers more. – Yeah and that’s a core to our model because from the beginning
our model is different than most traditional agencies Where we actually
outsource 100% of design, 100% of coding, 100% of videography. – So none of those are in house resources? – Not a single employee. – Got it, got it. – We’ll quarterback it for the client so it still feels like a
typical agency interaction from a client perspective. But 100% of those have been
outsourced from the beginning because our argument when
pitching the client is, hey. If we don’t have those guys on our staff then we don’t feel like
we need to sell you more design work. Or we don’t feel like we need
to sell you a bigger website. We’re going to write a prescription for what you actually need. And then it feels like we’re both on the same side of the
table at that point. – And so clients are pretty open to that? – Clients love that. – Yeah, do they have direct communication to the freelancer network? – Depends on the
complexity of the situation or the type of client we’re dealing with. Usually we want to manage
most of that communication. But if there’s a really good reason to have one of the
developers jump on the phone with their IT department,. We’re not going to hide
them in the background. But because that is how we
actually established our model. From day one we had to
really create a process to vet the research partners. Vet them with pilot projects and then communicate to the
team who’s good, who’s not, what the right fit is. So it’s been a labor of love. We’ve got our stable
of probably 30 partners that we lean on very heavily. – [Kevin] Yeah. – Where we almost fell up
a full time job for them with the amount of work
that we have gone out. But we also can’t just
rest on those guys, right. We have more clients, we have
more people, more demands. And the marketing world is changing. So we actually have a committee here but one of their jobs
is on a regular basis. Interview new partners,
look at their work. Find out what their pricing looks like. Onboard them with MBAs
and everything else. – [Kevin] Yeah. – And then encourage the team. Let them know hey, these are the new guys. These are the fits. – [Kevin] Here’s what they specialize in. Here’s where they can help. – Yeah, give them a pilot project and then let the rest of
us know how that went. – So where does the team go to research or find new partners that they want to reach out to or talk to? – Yeah, it’s a lot of LinkedIn. A lot of our natural
networks but also the Fibers and the Elances and places like that. – And then what does the actual? You mentioned like pilot projects. Is there any process
around exactly like hey? Here are our guidelines, here are our requirements style guide. What does that vetting or
qualification process look like? To say that yes, they you know. We deem them ready to take on projects for the whole team. – Typically we’re looking
at their portfolio on their website ahead of time. If they have reviews online
we’re reading through those. There’s an initial scan and call where we have a conversation with them. See what they’re all about. See what kind of vibe
we’re getting from them. Asking preliminary pricing
questions, those sorts of things. Then we’ll have them sign an NDA and then after that we’ll write them up. Put them in our partner database on Kalo where it’s fully searchable for the team. They can easily find all the contractors and what they specialize on. And then we’re trying to give
them a small pilot project. So if it’s a designer it’s hey. Here’s five sell sheets,
fixed bid, you know. – But it is like actual
client facing work? – It’s client facing work. – Small stakes, low stakes. – Exactly and then if they do well on that then they’re sent up the flag pole. The whole team knows this
is great new guy or gal. We should use them and this
is my experience to date and then they get a lot busier. – How often do like issues
or friction come up? Require like around your timelines. When you need deliverables. Do you ever have any communication issues with folks in this partner network? How do you kind of navigate
those conversations? – That’s, that’s the life we live, right? So client management,
expectation management. Hopefully we’ve navigated some of that from doing this for almost 10 years. To know like hey, when
we’re scoping the project. Make sure we ask the client X, Y, and Z because this bit us these many times. And you know like anything,
things are gonna come up. So I think it’s just having
an open line of communication with the partner when there
is a dispute about pay or about timelines or anything like that, just being reasonable. I mean, being in client
services we know how it is when you have a bad client. When they’re coming at
you and being unreasonable and just trying to squeeze
everything you can out of them. We don’t do that. We pay people on time. When there is an issue we’re reasonable. You know, is this an instance where we should eat the difference? Is this an issue where we
should split the difference? Can we make it up to them in the future where if they are good partners right now and put in a little extra work. We’ll try and make sure they’re on a really good project next. So just treating people
how you want to be treated. – That’s a good point, right. Like where can we just make sure that there’s always goodwill and we’re using good judgment
from the client’s perspective? Because okay, if a freelancer
isn’t doing their duties. Like yeah, that might burn
the TribalVision team. But you also have to think
it’s at the end of the day gonna to burn the client, right. So you go hey, where do we? To your point, where do
we eat the difference? How can we rectify? But you’re always just again, putting the customer
first it sounds like yeah. – Yeah and like anything with
employees and with clients. You learn a lot of people
during the bad times, right. So everyone’s their best
self during the good times. – [Kevin] Oh sure. – You really learn what someone’s made of when you’re in the shit. – [Kevin] Yeah. – So you know, there’s plenty
of partners that we’ve built so much trust with in the past. Because, you know, I can look at them and say hey listen man,
you did nothing wrong. This is the situation we’re in. This is the only way we’re
going to get paid by that guy. I’m not gonna penalize you in any way but whatever you can
do to help me out here would be appreciated. – [Kevin] Yeah. – And the guys who I’ve been
working with for nine years. They know I’m gonna make it up to them. So if they’ve got to do some extra work and not charge us more because
the client’s not gonna pay. They’ll do that but they know hey. The next time there’s
a really nice project, it’s coming your way. And I don’t forget those things. – Right, reciprocal right. – Exactly. – So if I’m looking to
scale my own agency. I probably am looking or already working with freelancers right. And you mentioned a couple
examples, design development. Is there a freelancer or
a partner that you use that maybe you didn’t
anticipate being so valuable? But like this type of specialization or projects that they work
on has become invaluable. I’d be interested in is
there any unique use cases for freelancers that you’ve
found to be very valuable? – Yeah I mean, I guess
those are the old tried and true and the new
stuff that’s coming up. The new stuff that’s coming up is Amazon. So I mean all of your
viewers probably know. They’re not just taking up a big bite of the e-commerce bucket now. But they’re also starting
to take up a big chunk of the ad dollars. – [Kevin] Yeah. – And that’s a very specific skillset. It’s kind of a gold rush right now. So it’s probably not someone who A, have enough work to put on your payroll. And B, even want to think
about paying that person full time because it’s similar to when the iPhone first came out. How much an app developer cost. – [Kevin] Sure, yeah. – And they could tell
you it’s $500 an hour and you’d pay it because
there’s only so many people. – Where else are you going to go? – Right, who can build an
app on an iPhone right now? And that’s kind of where Amazon is. I think as time goes on you’ll see some of those fees come down. But it’s not unreasonable
for me to be paying $500 an hour for a contractor. And I have guys on staff who
can do some Amazon stuff. But when it becomes, you
know, to be a sizable project or a very specific question
that’s above our pay grade. – [Kevin] Yeah. – Then that’s where I’m tapping– – That really high technical
expertise subject matter. Like the pro type questions. – Yeah, – Those are difficult to find. – And the other skillset
that we outsource a lot that is very valuable for us to be able to not have in-house. But also for our clients to
drive really good work product and a low dollar are the brochureware WordPress websites, right. So where we have a few core developers, where our process is. We’re going to work with the
client to buy a template. We’ll customize the template. This isn’t a pure 100% from scratch design because it’s responsive and everything. – Right. – You know, you’re not looking
to do anything advanced from an e-commerce perspective. You’re looking to tell the
world what you do, who you are. – Right, some basic conversion points. – Yeah, exactly. So you know, we probably pump
out 75 of those sites a year. – [Kevin] Really. – So they have a few
partners that really have gotten this to be an assembly line. And can pump those
things out at a good cost where there’s margin for them, we’re not killing them. right. Because they built a process behind it. But also our clients are
seeing a lot of value because something maybe
they got a quote for for 40 grand out in the marketplace. We can do for 15 grand. – That’s great, so it all
comes back to building those strong relationships
with the partners that you know, do good work. And it’s a win, win, win for them, for you and for the end client right? – Yeah and you gotta do right every day no matter where you’re at right. So I have some months
where something happened and cash is a little tight. You have a decision to make then. Are you gonna to pay these guys on time or are you going to
protect your own interest? And nine out of 10 times
we’re saying, nope. We’ll pay them well in
advance of us actually getting paid by the client. Just to make sure, you know, if there are those tough times on the other side. They remember those small
things I did for them. – It makes sense. The last thing I do want to cover as we just talk about all these plays. Processes to improve the profit
margins for TribalVision. The third piece is this idea and I don’t. Is it like the maintenance program or maintenance retainers? And so I don’t want to
butcher the definition. Explain exactly what that is and kind of what motivated the decision
to add in that layer for your service offering? – So our model is a little different. Where we’re deploying a four person team to a standard account
at various skillsets. So because of that I know
exactly what my cost is to deploy every team right. So that also meant we
had a minimum retainer. – [Kevin] Sure. – You know, right now it’s $8,500. I know what my margin is
deploying a four person. – Was it always 8,500? – No, it’s gone up over the years. – Yeah, all right. – So the first year– – I bet a lot of agencies
would like to be able to say that 8,500 is their default. – Yeah. – I’m sure it’s something that
you ended up growing into. – No, I mean right now our
first plan ever cost $2,500. It’s not uncommon for us to be charging 20 or $25,000 for that right now. So like anything as you
get a bigger client mix and more recurring revenue. You can then slowly increase
your prices based on having some, you know. Some comfort knowing your
rents going to be paid by the last guys. – [Kevin] Sure, yeah. – So your close rate can
go down on the new guys. – [Kevin] Yeah. – And also you’re constantly testing what the market can bear. But yeah, where we are right now. It’s $8,500 for a standard team to be deployed to your account. Many accounts are above
that but that’s our minimum. – Yep. – So because of that when
clients would have conversations with us about decreasing the retainer from a budget perspective or
just how much work they need. We were pretty rigid in the past. We said no, we can’t. You know, it just doesn’t fit our model. And over– – So were you losing? So that’s the difference between $8,500 a month or zero right? – Exactly, yeah and it’s cutting your customer lifetime value. – Right. – But you know up until that point we said this is our model, we’re sticking with it. You know, we know it works. And over the past few years
we’re really trying to take a hard to look at
it saying, you know. How can we do this? How can we build something
where we could extend our life with these clients? Especially the ones that still love us and like our work and our
feeling impact from us? But for one reason or
another, can’t afford or don’t want to pay that amount anymore. – [Kevin] Sure. – And that’s where we re-imagined this with the maintenance model. We’re saying okay, let’s
build packages that require more time from a lower level resource, that’s a lower cost resource and less time from a manager. – Sure. – How are we gonna to do that? We need to build something
that is surrounded around more repeatable process oriented work. And less of a unique thought process and strategy and all that. So we developed an
offering where it could be a lighter touch from a manager and more work done by the associate. And actually cut it in half for the– – [Kevin] Wow. – You end up the end clients. And that’s really worked out well. If you look at our portfolio right now I have a really decent portion of people in the maintenance program. Where the clients are
paying us for the work, less than $8,500 a month. That’s probably extended
our lifetime with them by a year or two. And it also creates a situation where you can defend that relationship more because if they paused then stopped. There’s a higher
likelihood that they might go back out to the market if
they share a new need right. They remember you but maybe they’re gonna to try someone else. Where how much easier is it if
you have a base retainer 4K. They’ve got a temporary
increase need where, hey. We have a big project, We have a new product we’re launching. We’re gonna to temporarily
increase your retainer back up to 10 grand a
month for three months and then drop down to the four. – So you’re pretty fluid in
the way folks can navigate between that full retainer
versus maintenance, yeah. – Absolutely. – Do you ever, how did that
change the sales process? Like do you now go to market and lead with the maintenance price? Or is it only a downgrade option once they’ve committed
to the minimum agreement at the default retainer? – Yeah, we’re going gonna
feel that situation out based on what the initial
budget is for the client. We’re not leading with it oftentimes because we wanna protect the
main part of our business. And also it’s not a
right fit for the client out of the gate a lot of the time because if you think about it. If you’re starting a
new marketing program. There’s a lot of work upfront and you need a lot of resources front-loaded. You’re writing a marketing plan. From the marketing plan you’re standing up all these new initiatives. I might need to bring in HubSpot and build a whole marketing
automation platform from scratch for you and
overhaul your website. – Yeah sure. – That’s a lot of hours
and you don’t want that to take a whole year. So for you as a client
it makes a lot more sense to have a full team come
on in the beginning. Stand up all this stuff quickly for you and then once a bunch
of the sexy new stuff is up and running. And we’ve got the blueprint. – The foundation is set yeah. – Then let’s talk about
calming down the span, calming down the work. Moving more to process oriented work but it’s not a good fit
when I’m saying hey. We got to think big thoughts and stand up this martech stack. To be doing that at a 4K a month retainer. – Right, right. What percentage of your client base is now downgrading to
the maintenance piece? Is that, I’m interested if you have it. What’s the percentage there and is it more or less
than you anticipated? Or you know what I mean? – It’s more than I
anticipated, which is good. It shows when people were looking up originally give their notice. It wasn’t because we were doing bad work. It was more of a budgetary decision. – Sure. – Right now it’s probably about 10 to 15% of our total revenue every month. Which is huge when you think about what would our revenue have looked like without that 10K– – Right, if it was 4,000
but became zero yeah right. – So it’s, I think it’s also been exciting for the team to see. You know we’re not just
doing the vanilla ice cream version of the model anymore. Like this is a new career path, to our earlier conversation, for someone. There is a new division lead for this. This division can also spread
out to do other things. Like before we didn’t do project work, all of our clients were retainer base. This maintenance team has now rebranded the special projects team. And in addition to the maintenance
work that they’re doing. They’re also taking more two to three month projects because hey. We can staff that a little
lighter with managers. Hey, maybe we have a few
more freelancers involved– – Sure. – Cause it’s a shorter term gig. But it creates a new
opportunity to take work that we couldn’t take before. Without breaking the
system with how we have the rest of the 85% of the business. – No, that’s great. So if I’m an agency looking to get started with my own maintenance retainer, right. I have my default but
now I’m also exploring with this lightweight
maintenance type option. What would be the solar
service delivery options there? Like what do you guys provide for clients at that maintenance level? – It’s a lot of process oriented work. So we’re doing a lot of email deployals. We’re doing a lot of
SEO maintenance, right. So SEO as you know, isn’t
something you just do once then you’re good. It’s more like a mutual fund. You gotta put money into
it every single month. – [Kevin] Yeah, sure. – So a lot of emails stuff, A lot of SEO, ad words management,
paid digital management, those sorts of things. – Great. – And one other thing
I’d say for the viewers is make sure you’re not just looking at the hours and the type work. But you’re looking at the
client management aspect of it. Because at least for us,
the people transitioning from the traditional retainer
to the maintenance retainer. They’re used to a very high touch service when they’re paying a lot of money. You need to reorient them to what are the touchpoints gonna look? – It’s going to be less frequently. It’s going to probably be lower. Lighter on like actual consulantancy. – Yeah yeah, you’re gonna
to get your monthly report. We’ll do a half hour
call to go through that. You know, we’ll have a call
maybe once every two weeks instead of multiple every week. You can still call me at Hawk but you can’t do it as much as before. – [Kevin] Right. – And that’s important
because it also helps you sell the value to move them back up to a normal retainer later. – They then see the value
of having the high touch, high end, yeah. Right, it makes sense. – Yup. – And I would assume that
you have those expectations clear cut right? Whatever that initial
downgrade transition is. Like hey listen, this is what it means from your consultancy, your
touchpoints, et cetera. – Yeah, we can definitely talk about decreasing your retainer. This is an offering we have. Here’s some of the key differences. Here’s the value for you at the same time. – That’s great. Final question. Asked this to every guest. I definitely didn’t tell you this was gonna to be a question. (laughter) So we get the nice candid answer. – Yeah. – What would you say is the
weirdest part of agency life? – Oh, geez. I’d say the the situations
that cross your desk every day. So sometimes it’s bad
behavior with a client. Sometimes it’s a situation a client’s telling you about. They’re just calling you to say hey. This crazy thing just happened to me. What are we going to do? But just the unique situations you’d see from an HR perspective internally. From hearing from the clients
and just how the world works. – So there’s an element of like
crisis management at times. – Yeah. – And that’s the, yeah. You find that in the exciting component. – Yeah, I call those
the stories that you can pull out of your pocket when
you retire from agency life. And you’re sitting there having a beer with your past employees. Like they keep a list of those. Like remember the time? – Yeah, right, yeah. Those will be the memories
that you reminisce on, like the absolute wild stuff. – Usually the best stories
are the worst in the moment. – That’s true. Awesome man, that’s all I have for you. I really appreciate you jumping in. – Sure. – But that’s it. This has been another
episode of Agency Unfiltered. If you like what you watched? Make sure to subscribe to our
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the conversation going, tweet me @Kevin_Done. Remember, keep it unfiltered, stay weird. I’m Kevin Dunn and I’ll see you next time. (rock music)

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